Curse

Aracos79 · Oct 26, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I still think the core issue here is freedom of speech and expresion. Whether you believe homosexuality is natural or not, whether you agree with the use of such language or not... the restriction of our right to speak and express ourselves freely is of the most paramount importance. If one day this particular expression is "banned", what could be banned tomorrow? Burn one book today, burn the library tomorrow. I know it sounds extreme, but are we willing to take the risk?

Freedom of thought and expression is one of the most precious rights we have. If we give it up, for even a moment, we are no longer a free people or a free society. People have the right to be idiots. If they want to spend their lives insulting people to try and make themselves feel better, they have the right to do so. We MUST respect that, whether we agree with them or not. The second we don't, we become even worse than those we hate.

Avari Zi · Oct 26, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftAlone-

So very true...
I kinda want people to know my case.. but I can already imagine the reactions of the majority..

I myself havent really though of being with a man all that much.. Like.. Uh.. How do I explain this... When I start thinking of it.. it feels wrong.. but then I realise it only feels wrong becaus of the fact that I keep remembering what other people mite think.. Still its really weird.. Im very new to this feeling, and dont really know how to cope with it yet..

So Avari.. is that special loved one of yours a female? Just a curious question

Yes, in fact she's known as "zehly" on the forums.

As for the usage of "gay" in things like "The Gay Mesmer Build" or "lesbians are hot". It effects me as much as "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO" and we all know what that means by now. That stuff doesn't really bother me untill it's directed personally and negatively.

MSecorsky · Oct 26, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftAlone-

So very true...
I kinda want people to know my case.. but I can already imagine the reactions of the majority..

I myself havent really though of being with a man all that much.. Like.. Uh.. How do I explain this... When I start thinking of it.. it feels wrong.. but then I realise it only feels wrong becaus of the fact that I keep remembering what other people mite think.. Still its really weird.. Im very new to this feeling, and dont really know how to cope with it yet..
All I know for sure is that I kinda dislike gay males who act like a woman.. thats just pushing it over the top for me.. but thats fine.. People are what they are.. Also I dislike very manly men..
I myself dont really show that part of me onto the outside.. but often when Im with a girl, I start acting weird.. I actually feel like a female at times... but act like a man.. except that most people note me as very sensitive and open on experssing feelings..
Meh.. I just managed to confuce myself completely..

So Avari.. is that special loved one of yours a female? Just a curious question

Hey, you are who you are. Don't dwell on it, what happens happens. I, for one, cannot even comprehend 'being with' a guy. It's just not in my biological makeup. Which, of course, makes the wife an kids happy.

Simplest breakdown is this... if people focused more on their own lives and improving them and less on other peoples lives and trying to drag them down to their perceived level, we'd all be better off and this thread would have never started.

kg_lildude1 · Oct 26, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avari Zi

This is what I really dislike about society, that people have to be afraid of revealing their sexual preference and ultimately keeping their love a secret, that's something, in my opinion, no one should have to do. Like my math teacher has a daughter that wanted a mohawk and then decided she didn't want one being afraid what other kids might think. Sad, even at that young age people conform to what others think is "proper" or "cool".

Our society is cruel, but compared to other countries, some might consider ours heaven.

What really quirks me is that our country considers itself so equal, but is so unbalanced that it surprises me.

Because of the beaurocratic non-sense, by the time homosexuals and bisexuals are equal to express their own rights to the world, it will be 2031 or something, because face it, our country considers itself equal, but when we fight to equal something unbalanced, it takes forever, even if we KNOW that it goes against everything we created the great nation for, like

freedom & pursuit of happiness

you should be able to do or be whatever rocks your boat, but being persecuted for doing or being these things is completely against everything we do, so basically we should put a big bumper sticker on America's a$$ saying "Home of the free, and land of the hipocrits"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Feanor

Ok, now we're going to play on words. Let me use a better one to clarify what I was trying to say by "prove". If you wish to continue argue that there is a "gay gene" then "convince" me using valid, accurate evidence that there is one. I have seen none so far that do.

you are supposed to prove it doesn't exist, and by doing that you solve whether there is or isn't such a thing

"it is much easier to prove something wrong than to prove something right"

Omega Complex · Oct 26, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avari Zi

That stuff doesn't really bother me untill it's directed personally and negatively.

I agree

LeftAlone- · Oct 26, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Hey, you are who you are. Don't dwell on it, what happens happens. I, for one, cannot even comprehend 'being with' a guy.

The thing is I cant either.. it just feels weird.. the whole idea..
No matter how weird this sounds, but I think Im just a female living in a males body tbh.. Not that I want to get me a plastic surgery to get female parts or anything.. At times I just get this feeling, and I also feel more comfortable with the idea of being with a woman.. So I guess the conclusion would be that Im a lesbian..

Akhilleus · Oct 26, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

For the record, I'm not homosexual, but I have friends who are. The use of the term "gay" used to describe anything unfavorable, like "gay builds," is as offensive to me as the "N" word for black people.

first of all i should say i am not racist and i have absolutly nothing agasint gay individuals, but, because your post displays a COMPLETE lack of knowledge, derived from the so-called "politically correct" left i feel the need to correct you in YOUR incorrect assumptions.
first, i shall start with the dictionary definition of gay:

ADJECTIVE:
gay·er , gay·est
Overly excited state of emotion.
Lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
Dissolute, licentious.
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
Given to social pleasures.

next i will inform you that the term "gay," in reference to homosexuals, WAS STARTED BY HOMOSEXUALS. why? it was used by homosexual males as an alternate term to the derogatory terms "faggot," "homo," and "queer."

Quote:

A lot of juvenile attention-deficient people use this word in the game and in these forums. I request the moderators be more strict on the abuse of the word "gay."

if you are insinuating that individuals with attention-deficit disorder are all bigots and racists, you, sir, are the one who needs to evaluate your social predespositions.

Quote:

Only an idiot would argue that "Hey, man. 'Gay' could mean 'happy.'" Right. In that respect a "f*ggot" is just a bundle of sticks and a "f*g" is a cigarette. The context makes its meaning obvious.

if by "idiot" you mean someone with a vocabulary that extends past the doubble digits, then yes, i suppose you are correct in this assumption. while the context may be derogatory, the word is not, so censoring the word will not help. that is, unless you are conceding to be homosexual is in nature derogatory?

Quote:

And it IS a big deal because homosexuals are marginalized and persecuted in just about every culture in every nation in every time in history. Many kids would be surprised at how common homosexuality is (but just not made obvious) - chances are they know more than one person who is gay and don't even know it.

INCORRECT
i have never seen such a baseless and overly ignorant comment in my life.
in fact, throughout MOST of history's cultures and civilizations homosexuality was not only accepted, but encouraged.
case and point; the spartan military encouraged a system of "mentorship" where an older male would take on a young boy as his pupil, and teach him in the ways of art, warfare, culture and "how to become a man," that is, often developing a homosexual relationship with the boy.
it was most strongly encouraged among the phalanx, as to bind a unit together more tightly fewer things are stronger than familial and sexual bonds that extend off the battlefield.
homosexuality was accepted and encouraged in almost all of ancient greece, much of the middle east, in ancient rome (thier tolerance of it depleted as time passed), and up until the medieval period, where its openness declined in the eropean theartre, with the rise of the worlds historically single most unaccepting religion; christanity.

Quote:

Using "gay" as an insult is truly disgusting. After all, I wouldn't expect someone to get away with using the word "n*gger" with impunity nowadays. I implore the mods do something when the abuse of the term "gay" in these forums is brought to their attention.

thats because the word "n*gger" as you put it, was right off the bat a derogatory term used to demean and belittle the group in which it referred, the term "gay" to this day is considered the next most politically correct term for homosexuals, next to...homosexuals (interestingly enough, where the term "homo" quite obviously was derived; and which is possibly the most unaccepted term).

my point is merely to point out to you that in your attempt to achieve political correctness you ahve actually showed your own ignorance as to the use of terms.
it is not the word that displays hate, but the person who uses it.

i am a libertarian, and i firmly believe that what anyone wishes to do, so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, the government has absolutly no business regulating, supervising or banning it. but making baseless and uneducated assumptions actually damages the movement towards acceptance and individual rights, obtain an education and come back to the argument pointing out that individuals who use the term in a truly baseless, directly offensive matter should watch thier tounge, but to ban a word that does have perfectly legitimate connotations, simply because you assume everyone surrounding you is an uneducated bigot, does nothing to advance your argument.
thanks for your time, Akh.

Polloloco3 · Oct 26, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tzhebee

Well, I was perfectly happy keeping my mouth shut until I saw this post.

First of all...homosexuals do not have a choice anymore than a black man being black! It's not like you wake up one day and think to yourself "Hmmm, I'd really like to sleep with other people of my same sex so that I can be ridiculed by the general public, never be able to get married, not be able to adopt, etc, etc." No, gay people are BORN gay, like blacks are born black.

Now, if you walked up to a person and said "are you gay" that's fine...but when you use the term "gay" as derogitory, which is what the OP was talking about, then your meaning of the term becomes offensive. You are correct about context...but a phrase like "dude that is soooo gay" is just rude. It's not cool. It's not funny. It's just as cruel and inappropriate as n*gger. (which, BTW, I agree that a n*gger is not necessarily a black person, but rather a piece of trash of any skin tone)

As far as the mesmer thing goes...give a guy a mask, tights and have him riverdance does not indicate that he's gay...in fact, he's probably a heterosexual man who is secure enough in his masculenity to not give a flying f*ck what closed minded bigots think. Then again, he may be a flaming homosexual who enjoys prancing about in tights. But that doesn't make the derogitory use of the term "gay" acceptable.

Oh...and this is just my opinion.

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no "GAY" chromosome in our karyotype. So saying people don't CHOOSE to be gay is incorrect. As he said a person can not CHOOSE to be black, white, brown, yellow. However we CHOOSE to live our life by our actions.

Sure it looks like they don't have a choice, like you said who wants to be rediculed? Why are people gay then? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe its because they enjoy the sexual gratifiation of having sex with the same gender. Is that about right?

Lasareth · Oct 26, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no "GAY" chromosome in our karyotype. So saying people don't CHOOSE to be gay is incorrect. As he said a person can not CHOOSE to be black, white, brown, yellow. However we CHOOSE to live our life by our actions.

Sure it looks like they don't have a choice, like you said who wants to be rediculed? Why are people gay then? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe its because they enjoy the sexual gratifiation of having sex with the same gender. Is that about right?

If you will make a point, please back it up with evidence. I don't see anywhere where it says "Human genome decoded: no sequence of nucleotides leads to homosexuality"

And if you don't know, then why refute?

Conversely, there's no genetic proof (that I know of) to prove the opposite. So instead of disputing the cause, let's talk about how we deal with it, as a society and as individuals.

kg_lildude1 · Oct 26, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no "GAY" chromosome in our karyotype. So saying people don't CHOOSE to be gay is incorrect. As he said a person can not CHOOSE to be black, white, brown, yellow. However we CHOOSE to live our life by our actions.

Sure it looks like they don't have a choice, like you said who wants to be rediculed? Why are people gay then? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe its because they enjoy the sexual gratifiation of having sex with the same gender. Is that about right?

read my posts and you will understand why both you and Bee are wrong, because neither has been proven

MSecorsky · Oct 26, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no "GAY" chromosome in our karyotype. So saying people don't CHOOSE to be gay is incorrect. As he said a person can not CHOOSE to be black, white, brown, yellow. However we CHOOSE to live our life by our actions.

Sure it looks like they don't have a choice, like you said who wants to be rediculed? Why are people gay then? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe its because they enjoy the sexual gratifiation of having sex with the same gender. Is that about right?

Amazing how quickly a likely factual (yet still unproven) statement can be misused. Studies have shown a strong link between homosexuality and excessive testosterone produced in the womb. Somehow this affects the fetuses biochemistry, resulting often in homosexuality. Because it's not genetic doesn't mean it's optional. If your brain is wired to find the same sex attractive, be it genetic or not, it's still how you're wired.

LeftAlone- · Oct 26, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avari Zi

Yes, in fact she's known as "zehly" on the forums.

As for the usage of "gay" in things like "The Gay Mesmer Build" or "lesbians are hot". It effects me as much as "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO" and we all know what that means by now. That stuff doesn't really bother me untill it's directed personally and negatively.

Wait a moment.. so do you know her in real life also, or is it a bit more complicated?

And what goes to the rest of the post.. I completely agree.. Aslong as its not intended as a direct insult, Im perfectly fine with it.

Omega Complex · Oct 26, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I agree with your post Akhilleus, but I can still have my personal opinions as can everyone else. Like I stated earlier the use of the term "gay" to describe me is not an issue at all. And as you stated it is much better than alternatives.

I would also like to thank you for bringing up ancient greco-roman cultures. I have been saying that for many years and it has fallen upon deaf ears. Mabye now some of you may realize where alot of these things are coming from. And Akhilleus is right, "gay" is most definetly politically correct, consider a recent issue of Time Magazine, the front cover "Gay Teens".

And for your last statement, everyone shows ignorance once in a while, I myself have done it on multiple occasions, but as long as you are able to learn and grow because of it, we will be fine. No one is completely politically correct.

Akhilleus · Oct 26, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

first of all i should say i am not racist and i have absolutly nothing agasint gay individuals, but, because your post displays a COMPLETE lack of knowledge, derived from the so-called "politically correct" left i feel the need to correct you in YOUR incorrect assumptions.
first, i shall start with the dictionary definition of gay:

ADJECTIVE:
gay·er , gay·est
Overly excited state of emotion.
Lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
Dissolute, licentious.
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
Given to social pleasures.

next i will inform you that the term "gay," in reference to homosexuals, WAS STARTED BY HOMOSEXUALS. why? it was used by homosexual males as an alternate term to the derogatory terms "faggot," "homo," and "queer."

if you are insinuating that individuals with attention-deficit disorder are all bigots and racists, you, sir, are the one who needs to evaluate your social predespositions.

if by "idiot" you mean someone with a vocabulary that extends past the doubble digits, then yes, i suppose you are correct in this assumption. while the context may be derogatory, the word is not, so censoring the word will not help. that is, unless you are conceding to be homosexual is in nature derogatory?

INCORRECT
i have never seen such a baseless and overly ignorant comment in my life.
in fact, throughout MOST of history's cultures and civilizations homosexuality was not only accepted, but encouraged.
case and point; the spartan military encouraged a system of "mentorship" where an older male would take on a young boy as his pupil, and teach him in the ways of art, warfare, culture and "how to become a man," that is, often developing a homosexual relationship with the boy.
it was most strongly encouraged among the phalanx, as to bind a unit together more tightly fewer things are stronger than familial and sexual bonds that extend off the battlefield.
homosexuality was accepted and encouraged in almost all of ancient greece, much of the middle east, in ancient rome (thier tolerance of it depleted as time passed), and up until the medieval period, where its openness declined in the eropean theartre, with the rise of the worlds historically single most unaccepting religion; christanity.

thats because the word "n*gger" as you put it, was right off the bat a derogatory term used to demean and belittle the group in which it referred, the term "gay" to this day is considered the next most politically correct term for homosexuals, next to...homosexuals (interestingly enough, where the term "homo" quite obviously was derived; and which is possibly the most unaccepted term).

my point is merely to point out to you that in your attempt to achieve political correctness you ahve actually showed your own ignorance as to the use of terms.
it is not the word that displays hate, but the person who uses it.

i am a libertarian, and i firmly believe that what anyone wishes to do, so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, the government has absolutly no business regulating, supervising or banning it. but making baseless and uneducated assumptions actually damages the movement towards acceptance and individual rights, obtain an education and come back to the argument pointing out that individuals who use the term in a truly baseless, directly offensive matter should watch thier tounge, but to ban a word that does have perfectly legitimate connotations, simply because you assume everyone surrounding you is an uneducated bigot, does nothing to advance your argument.
thanks for your time, Akh.

thought i'd refer to myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

Hate to burst your bubble but there is no "GAY" chromosome in our karyotype. So saying people don't CHOOSE to be gay is incorrect. As he said a person can not CHOOSE to be black, white, brown, yellow. However we CHOOSE to live our life by our actions.

Sure it looks like they don't have a choice, like you said who wants to be rediculed? Why are people gay then? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe its because they enjoy the sexual gratifiation of having sex with the same gender. Is that about right?

this above quote is a perfect example of someone making completly baseless remarks, and presenting them as universal truths.
if this person knew anything of genetics past what he has viewed from the sci-fi channel he would be aware that FAR more dictates our "development" than merely our 26 (standard) chromosomes.

Polloloco3 · Oct 26, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

look at the karyotype. NO GAY CHROMOSOMES.

Count Feanor · Oct 26, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_lildude1

Our society is cruel, but compared to other countries, some might consider ours heaven.

What really quirks me is that our country considers itself so equal, but is so unbalanced that it surprises me.

Because of the beaurocratic non-sense, by the time homosexuals and bisexuals are equal to express their own rights to the world, it will be 2031 or something, because face it, our country considers itself equal, but when we fight to equal something unbalanced, it takes forever, even if we KNOW that it goes against everything we created the great nation for, like

freedom & pursuit of happiness

you should be able to do or be whatever rocks your boat, but being persecuted for doing or being these things is completely against everything we do, so basically we should put a big bumper sticker on America's a$$ saying "Home of the free, and land of the hipocrits"

you are supposed to prove it doesn't exist, and by doing that you solve whether there is or isn't such a thing

"it is much easier to prove something wrong than to prove something right"

Which is why I changed the word to convince. There is evidence that has formed my opinion on this matter which I'd be happy to share. And if you have evidence to share with me feel free.

Akhilleus · Oct 26, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

look at the karyotype. NO GAY CHROMOSOMES.

once again, it is FAR more complicated than simply saying there are no "gay" chromosomes.
i'd be happy to argue the point with you, but id much rather have a far more qualified person do it for me, such as my mother, who taught molecular cell biology at duke university for 13 years, but i fail to believe she would belittle herself to argue with the likes of you.

Omega Complex · Oct 26, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

look at the karyotype. NO GAY CHROMOSOMES.

If you could, send me the complete chromosome map and its decoded genome sequences where you are deriving your information.. Thank you.

*Edited for spelling

MSecorsky · Oct 26, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polloloco3

look at the karyotype. NO GAY CHROMOSOMES.

If you mean that there is no evidence of chorosomes that are sexually attracted to chromosomes of the same sex, that's likely true. However, even though the human genome has been read, the vast majority of it still hasn't been identified to what it's specific purpose is.

Besides, I've already posted on the fact that homosexuality appears linked to testosterone exposure in the womb and not genetics, yet you ignore this little tidbit to keep regurgitating the same baseless argument.

SOT · Oct 26, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I apologize to everyone for my attempt at silencing what has obviously become what I knew it would. My intention was honest, but my methods were underhanded.

I therefore bow out, and wish to make amends by saying I am sorry. (enjoy that, it won't happen often)